tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1165769205232647877.post5812397466581353076..comments2024-02-29T13:27:35.920+00:00Comments on Communicate Science: Why organic must turn to science to surviveEoin Letticehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01071259029480033661noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1165769205232647877.post-48566456502697147342012-09-06T21:21:01.653+01:002012-09-06T21:21:01.653+01:00The problem I see with organics is that it is lock...The problem I see with organics is that it is locked into its (absolute/fundamentalist) rules that were set once and for all times. I do believe that a lot of these people want to do the right thing, and a lot of their ideas are good, but with its given set of rules (for certification etc.) organic agriculture cannot adopt inputs and processes that turn out to be more sustainable, better for the environment, more nutritious, more healthy, etc. Conventional agriculture, by contrast, can use any input or process that is advantageous, "organic" or otherwise, which means well-intentioned conventional farmers have more tools at their hands to grow their crops and manage their farms sustainably. Hence, the "agricultural system... where what works and is safe from all systems of agriculture can be used" is conventional agriculture; no need for a "third way." (The crucial word in the phrase here is "can". In any system those few farmers who manage their farms poorly or irresponsibly will not get the best results for growers, consumers and the environment, irrespective of them being conventional or organic.) asnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1165769205232647877.post-84349636854388105412012-09-06T17:39:05.657+01:002012-09-06T17:39:05.657+01:00Tomorrow's Table is a must read on this subjec...Tomorrow's Table is a must read on this subject.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1165769205232647877.post-59716503780588305432012-09-06T01:44:41.078+01:002012-09-06T01:44:41.078+01:00Science advocates calling for more science-based O...Science advocates calling for more science-based Organic always sounded disingenuous to me. I don't understand how this can happen when the foundation of their practice rests upon the naturalistic fallacy. Also, studying the pros and cons of the practice is practically moot for the same reason. There are so many variables to consider how can we lump all those into one category like that? <br /><br />Instead of calling for Organic to be more science-minded how about we get all of agriculture to be more ecologically minded? There's nothing that Organic does better that can't be also done by agriculture. Anastasia's and Mary's proposal sounds like a good way to encourage regular ag to really do what Organic promises.PythagoreanCrankhttp://pythagoreacrank.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1165769205232647877.post-77236067286102688132012-09-05T13:57:15.185+01:002012-09-05T13:57:15.185+01:00Anastasia: that Tuomisto paper had a nice conclusi...Anastasia: that Tuomisto paper had a nice conclusion section that reminded me of your proposal. I know the article is subscription access so I'll just show a bit here. (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301479712004264 )<br /><br /><i>Further research is needed to explore the feasibility of assembling the elements of best environmental practices into coherent agricultural systems. These systems then need to be tested through a re-invigorated emphasis on farming systems research that assesses the alternatives not simply in terms of farm level returns but also through comprehensive Life Cycle Assessment of their place within wider food and energy supply chains. Similarly, in coming to an overall view of the relative performance of different systems, it is necessary to attribute relative importance to different types of environmental impacts ( [Tuomisto et al., 2012b] and [Tuomisto et al., 2012c]). This implies the adoption of some sort of multi-criteria analysis that introduces an implicit or explicit weighting of environmental impacts.</i><br /><br />They hope to move beyond the organic vs conventional debate. But it's not clear to me that some people are interested in moving beyond, and I don't know how to do that.Maryhttps://plus.google.com/115686712405727979216/aboutnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1165769205232647877.post-2350329628741445062012-09-05T01:32:02.632+01:002012-09-05T01:32:02.632+01:00Having worked in the organic sector, and having in...Having worked in the organic sector, and having investigated getting organic certification for a small farm I'm now involved in, it's clear to me "organics" is going to be a perpetual obstacle to rational discussions about farming.<br /><br />Organics has been around so long now that it is simply not going to go away. Debunked nonsense doesn't go away, it just finds a way to persist. The phenomenon of crop circles was debunked long ago but still has its believers.<br /><br />I decided against organics because not only is it unscientific, but it impedes a farmer's freedom to make his or her own decisions. Why let the NOP dictate how you farm? <br /><br />When you "go organic," you get the whole enchilada, not just the choice bits. <br /><br />You get the Naturalistic Fallacy, which is the cornerstone superstition of the organics movement. <br /><br />You get the lies of the Environmental Working Group about pesticide "loads" while ignoring the fact that organic farmers use pesticides.<br /><br />You get the total elimination of antibiotics as veterinary medicine but you can have all the homeopathy you want. <br /><br />You get the inanity of the Organic Consumers Association and their rants against "chemical farmers."<br /><br />You get the irrational Luddism and conspiracy theories of the anti-genetic-modification crowd.<br /><br />You get the Manichean "us" versus "them" mentality.<br /><br />No amount of scientific meta-analyses is going to cure farming of the organic derangement.MikeBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1165769205232647877.post-27438357664223488782012-09-05T00:19:54.580+01:002012-09-05T00:19:54.580+01:00I totally agree that we need a third way. We need ...I totally agree that we need a third way. We need careful use of modern tech combined with what we know about ecology. The problem is, how to get people interested and how to make it profitable for farmers? <br /><br />I've argued that we need to quantify the impact of each method (to the best of our ability). If we give each method a number then combine the numbers for each farm (average, or some more complex formula) then that number can be used for marketing. It could be called something like an E-score for Environment. Companies could make products with ingredients that have an E-score of x or higher and advertise their product as more sustainable. Farmers could charge more for their products that have higher E-scores yet retain far more flexibility in method options than if they were to go certified organic. <br /><br />This or some other system is needed to encourage farmers, packagers, etc to produce products with sustainability in mind on a far larger scale than organic. I wrote about this in <a href="http://www.biofortified.org/2010/08/toward-a-better-agriculture/" rel="nofollow">Toward a better agriculture… for everyone</a>.Anastasiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00673891640099040884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1165769205232647877.post-34863311818223019762012-09-05T00:05:05.844+01:002012-09-05T00:05:05.844+01:00This discussion gets so heated so quickly, and it&...This discussion gets so heated so quickly, and it's too bad. While I might laugh really hard at someone who wanted to try some wacky farming technique (say, biodynamics) I wouldn't withhold that from anyone.<br /><br />What I really resent is that some people want to withhold techniques and technology from farmers who want to use them. I think that's unfair--and it seems to be the organic proponents that want to prevent other people from using tools they disapprove.<br /><br />I do really dislike the organic regulations for animal care in the US though. I wouldn't stop people from homeopathic animal treatment that results from this, but I think it's cruel. <br /><br />http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/6330/the_cruel_irony_of_organic_standards/Maryhttps://plus.google.com/115686712405727979216/aboutnoreply@blogger.com